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Aha! So I’m not the only one who has no idea what those other items are. I thought that I just hadn’t read about them. Does Andy C or Graham P know what they are? Maybe we should try asking them?
I remember reading an interview with Andy R on Phenomena, and he intimated (though he didn’t actually confess) that he has been involved in some physical hoaxes, and he admitted outright to planting false stories in his books which were completely unreferenced just to see if they spread. So maybe he is pulling our legs on some of those things just to watch how we react, which admittedly would be amusing
(well, I would find it so, though perhaps not if I’d just handed over five grand of course).But assuming they are genuine questing artifacts then it would be nice to hear the story behind them.
Michael
Simon, I have been pondering it myself (I alluded to it in my ‘summary of discussion’ post, but wasn’t sure whether to actually propose it – well done on doing so yourself). It can’t do any harm can it? I gather from Andy R’s posts that there is such a ‘syndicate’ already offering.
The only trouble I see with depositing it in a museum, psychic or otherwise, would be if the museum then owns the pieces. They would be there for all to see, but what if they needed to be used – could they be quickly and easily undeposited? I was maybe thinking that a group could jointly own all artifacts, so no individual owned anything outright and couldn’t just ‘get rid’, and the group or designated persons would be custodians.
Of course, I’m running a bit ahead there. There is the small question of getting a syndicate and huge wads of cash together. You can count me in though (well, you can count me in after pay day!).
Michael
Hello Andy M,
Are you involved in anything at the moment?
Michael
I have to admit that I find the burial idea quite appealing; there’s something a bit romantic about it.
Michael
Quote:Looks like there’s no poltergeist but I am willing to admit to being possessed.The power of Christ compels you!
Don’t be too hard on yourself Simon, I still fondly remember the first time I inadvertantly formatted a harddisk. And then last year sometime I accidentally deleted over a thousand records from a live database – thank heavens for daily backups!
Newsletter sounds interesting though. What are you going to put in it?
£5,500! Wow, I don’t think I saw that one. My wife would divorce me if I spent that sort of money on questing artifacts, she thinks I’m dodgy as it is
Best Regards,
Michael
Hello Andy, glad to see you persevered and rejoined! Simon, the discussion was covering a few things before it disappeared:
* Yuri commented that he had seen Andrew and Sue Collins just recently, and they were dismayed that the items were up for sale in this manner.
* Some of us had wondered if Andrew, Graham Philips and Martin Keatman would have a claim on the items, though as it stands Gaynor has them and I suppose that is that.
* There were also questions on how their authenticity could be verified. Yuri had thought that Terry Shotton had destroyed the Eye of Fire for instance.
* Just what constitutes a reasonable offer?
My own feelings are that it would be a shame for the items to end up as just something in a private collection (though admitedly, if I had enough to make a ‘reasonable’ offer I would be tempted – sad bugger that I am!), but I’m not certain of the alternative. Should a group of sympathetic people contribute to a group offer, where the items would be collectively owned and potentially available?
Michael
I went off to a presentation, came back and an entire discussion disappeared. Is it paranormal?
What’s that about accounts being deleted? Phew, I’m still here! I guess Simon is having some problems.
Michael
Nice box! Thanks Yuri. Hmmm, meditate on this I will.
Michael
Yay Simon, a synchronicity!
Interesting idea about Lazarus and Mary, I’ll get around to reading the article later. I read one a few years ago that argued that Mary Magdalene was the author of the Fourth gospel, but I can’t remember where. It might have been from an academic journal in which case I can do a search.
Re balance, it is basic to alchemy from what little I know, and initiations frequently invoke the idea; you could say that the nexus of death and rebirth is itself a balance of negative and positive. Eliade says that the initiatory death is a return to the conditions that exist in the cosmic beginning, a time outside time, which is the ground from which creation and rebirth springs.
Michael
Interesting ponderings Yuri. I’ve almost finished reading “Shamanic Wisdom in the Pyramid Texts” by Jeremy Naydler, and one of the themes that has caught my attention is the initiate’s experience (the initiate being the shaman, Osiris, or the pharaoh) of being dismembered and later re-membered, marking the transition from one state of being or consciousness to another. In the Pyramid Texts (and in many shamanic traditions) receiving one’s head after the dismemberment is particularly important (for example, utterances 254 or 267 I think), and appears to be concerned with receiving spiritual vision and illumination. In some shamanic cultures the shaman must receive a new head forged by a blacksmith (Naydler’s notes give Mercia Eliade’s book “Shamanism” as the source for this nugget).
Let’s speculate here and tie this in with your ponderings on the use of the head of JtheB. It could be used in initiation ceremonies where the neophyte (perhaps having been ritually ‘beheaded’) is given the head of JtheB and thereby receives a spiritual awakening or visionary experience of some kind. Of course, the actual head may not be important; receiving the head of JtheB could be an interior experience. But if the real head were available, or a part of it, perhaps it would, as you ponder, have a powerful psychic kick.
The note about some shaman’s recieving a new head forged by a blacksmith does remind me of the head reliquary in AC’s “21st Century Grail”.
Something else in Naydler’s book resonates with what you have said, making me ponder the relationship between JtheB and Jesus and the common belief that Jesus was ‘John raised from the dead’. I need to collect my thoughts on this a bit more however, so I’ll say no more for the present.
I’d be interested in that booklet on JofA when it’s available (along with your own – how is that coming on btw) – is there somewhere that I can put my name down for a copy?
Michael
Sorry to resurrect this, but I was looking through Mircea Eliade’s book “Myths, Dreams and Mysteries” and came upon something interesting. In shamanic cultures demons are often the masters of initiation. They inflict various torments and sufferings upon the initiate (madness, illness, dismemberment), killing them, which is necessary for the initiate to be reborn. Thus the demons, although nasty pieces of work, nevertheless have a positive role in the economy of the spirit.
There are Christian parallels to this. The gospels mention Jesus spending 40 days (probably a symbolic period of time) in the desert being ‘tempted’ by the devil immediately after his baptism. There are also legends about St Anthony being tormented by demons (a classic dismemberment I believe), which enables him to attain to sainthood.
Which brings me back to Mary Magdalene. I think I have previously mused about 7 demons being a symbolic number. Drawing attention to 7 demons going out of or from Mary could indicate that she has undergone an especially intense initiatory crisis and rebirth, or perhaps a series of initiations, or even a perfect initiation (7 is frequently used in biblical texts to indicate perfection or completion). This may be linked to her being the first witness to the resurrection, however that is understood.
In this vein I wonder if Jesus’ role as exorcist might translate to Jesus as initiator, inasmuch as the exorcisms represent liberation from darkness and the coming of the Kingdom of God, which Jesus said is within (Luke 17:21, also translated ‘among you’). Traditionally baptism is preceeded by exorcism.
Michael
No ideas from my side, you might have to try googling (sometimes an esoteric art all by itself). All I came up with on a quick search was something on ‘Kollosoi’, basically ancient Greek ‘voodoo dolls’, usually embedded with substances from the subject such as fingernails, hair, etc:
[url:3g783axn]http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/GP.html[/url]Apart from that, there seem obvious parallels with the Celts love of heads (so I’ve heard), and I’m sure I remember you mentioning oracular heads.
What is interesting to me is that the practice looks as though it survived in the Christian veneration of saints’ relics. These didn’t have to be body parts, but frequently were, and there was a roaring trade in them at one time.
I guess that underlying it is the sense that the physical is imbued with spiritual power, and that dead bodies continue to hold some of the potency of the soul, or continue to be linked to it; the more powerful the soul, the more potent their bodies – hence the interest in bits and pieces of sorcerors and saints (perhaps – I’m just making this up really).
Hmmm, interesting. Where did you read the article?
Michael
Hello Mercury,
I’m from Brentwood in Essex myself, though I live in Plymouth now (well, in Hooe actually, just a water-taxi ride away into the Barbican).
There used to be an Earthquest group that met in Leigh-on-sea (the Ship Inn? I can’t remember) and I don’t know if that is still around. Having said that, my geography is appalling and I’m not sure how far Burnham-on-Crouch is from Leigh-on-sea. Does anybody know anything more on this? You could always go to AC’s website and ask him via email.
Do tell us if there is anything in particular that you are interested in/active in at the moment.
Best Regards,
Michael
Vyxen, back to your church (well not exactly…oh, you know what I mean), it also sounds similar to the Roman Catholic Cathedral in Brentwood. That has a central altar and entrance on the north, though no tetramorphs to my knowledge. It is also dedicted to St Mary and St Helen! It is a new building, dedicated in 1991, but incorporating the old building (19th century I think), and looks fairly impressive – quite a classical feel to it.
Interesting thing I remember about the north door in churches is that they are sometimes known as the Devil’s Door, and are normally never to be opened (except at baptisms, to let the devil out – whereupon they are quickly closed again), and some churches have them blocked up. I think this only applies to more ancient buildings.
That ‘Joanna’ thing is also a curious anomaly, and I wonder if someone was trying to say something. Is there a ‘history’ to your church? I wonder who the architect was, or who commisioned the design? Not that I know anything about these things, but I understand that the people who built these things sometimes had interesting connections.
Michael
Hey Simon, my missus has that book. Which page is it
Michael
