Harvesting of Body Parts?

[imported_YURIMember]

As with all the thousands of ingredients within Chinese Medicine, Rhinocerous horn, tigers claws etc; and Shamanic/Voodoo type usage of bones and bits; I have been reading in a short article about body parts being collected and used in ancient times for cultic and ritualistic purposes.

In the ancient Roman and Hellenisitc world, apparentally, there was a large traffic for the trade of these items, used by medical quackery, medicine men and or sorcerers… this encouraged a lucrative trade in grave robbing.

Body parts of sorcerers and miracle workers were especially desired, the skull, the fingers, or even the tongue…

…can anyone recomend some good source material on this subject?

[imported_supernaturalistMember]

No ideas from my side, you might have to try googling (sometimes an esoteric art all by itself). All I came up with on a quick search was something on ‘Kollosoi’, basically ancient Greek ‘voodoo dolls’, usually embedded with substances from the subject such as fingernails, hair, etc:
[url:3g783axn]http://www.cs.utk.edu/~mclennan/BA/GP.html[/url]

Apart from that, there seem obvious parallels with the Celts love of heads (so I’ve heard), and I’m sure I remember you mentioning oracular heads.

What is interesting to me is that the practice looks as though it survived in the Christian veneration of saints’ relics. These didn’t have to be body parts, but frequently were, and there was a roaring trade in them at one time.

I guess that underlying it is the sense that the physical is imbued with spiritual power, and that dead bodies continue to hold some of the potency of the soul, or continue to be linked to it; the more powerful the soul, the more potent their bodies – hence the interest in bits and pieces of sorcerors and saints (perhaps – I’m just making this up really).

Hmmm, interesting. Where did you read the article?

Michael

[imported_YURIMember]

Thanks Michael.

The article i read is really a small booklet by Mark McGiveron that isnt in print yet but will be in the near future… an indepth study of Joseph of Arimathea.

Mark quotes a couple of authors, (someone called Carrier) and talks about the ‘harvesting of body parts’ happening in the New Testiment times… it was of course illegal with certain exceptions… the remains of slaves or criminals were available to anyone; and it was pefectly legal to own these bits and pieces.

This applied to most crucifixions too (which were in the eyes of Rome, criminals) Crucifixion, not only a horrible death but also you were denied a grave because if you werent left to the birds of prey you were thrown into a communal pit of bodies, unmarked… and easy pickings for body part harvesters.

Of course, Jo of A requests Jesus’s body so that it can be saved from these horrible crucifixion aftermaths… really this isnt what interested me…

…for sure, the magical power of any artifact is in the belief of the holder. That said, a talented psychic can tell you things about someone just by psychometrising their watch or hanky…. What would a psychic get if they actually held a significant person’s skull for instance?

Imagine what it would be like to hold john the baptisits skull in your hands… or Hitlers… or Henry the VIII’s… or Plato’s…. in the hands of a ‘sensitive’ person… what input would they recieve?

I’m thinking that Salome’s request of John’s head was less to do with her mother’s spite but more to do with possessing this great miracle worker’s power and trying to tap into it…

…just pondering it really.

[imported_supernaturalistMember]

Interesting ponderings Yuri. I’ve almost finished reading “Shamanic Wisdom in the Pyramid Texts” by Jeremy Naydler, and one of the themes that has caught my attention is the initiate’s experience (the initiate being the shaman, Osiris, or the pharaoh) of being dismembered and later re-membered, marking the transition from one state of being or consciousness to another. In the Pyramid Texts (and in many shamanic traditions) receiving one’s head after the dismemberment is particularly important (for example, utterances 254 or 267 I think), and appears to be concerned with receiving spiritual vision and illumination. In some shamanic cultures the shaman must receive a new head forged by a blacksmith (Naydler’s notes give Mercia Eliade’s book “Shamanism” as the source for this nugget).

Let’s speculate here and tie this in with your ponderings on the use of the head of JtheB. It could be used in initiation ceremonies where the neophyte (perhaps having been ritually ‘beheaded’) is given the head of JtheB and thereby receives a spiritual awakening or visionary experience of some kind. Of course, the actual head may not be important; receiving the head of JtheB could be an interior experience. But if the real head were available, or a part of it, perhaps it would, as you ponder, have a powerful psychic kick.

The note about some shaman’s recieving a new head forged by a blacksmith does remind me of the head reliquary in AC’s “21st Century Grail”.

Something else in Naydler’s book resonates with what you have said, making me ponder the relationship between JtheB and Jesus and the common belief that Jesus was ‘John raised from the dead’. I need to collect my thoughts on this a bit more however, so I’ll say no more for the present.

I’d be interested in that booklet on JofA when it’s available (along with your own – how is that coming on btw) – is there somewhere that I can put my name down for a copy?

Michael

[imported_YURIMember]

Wow, Michael, brilliant!

Check this out

http://uk.geocities.com/yuri.leitch@bti … _main.html

The front of the casket has Wayland the elven Blacksmith holding a decapitated head in some blacksmiths tongues, and the very next accompanying panel shows the nativity of JC…. suggesting that the two stories are linked in some way… lol

Given me much to think about…

I’ll be in touch soon.

[imported_supernaturalistMember]

Nice box! Thanks Yuri. Hmmm, meditate on this I will.

Michael

[imported_AdamastorMember]

Hi Yuri

This a frightening subject. In South Africa there are “Muti Murders” and there is a trade in body parts. Body parts of infants are taken while they are alive, according to “them” the younger they are and the more violent it is the more potent the muti will be.

[imported_YURIMember]

Thanks for your post adamastor.

That’s a pretty grim piece of knowledge, hadnt heard of ‘Muti’ stuff before and have had a quick surf on the web about it.

Generally it seems to be less about medicine in a healing sense but more about self impowerment to become more successfull in business or finances etc. Still, the notion is the same; you take someone elses power to increase your own

Its a horrible notion but with regards to my ideas about Salome requesting John the Baptists head; I feel pretty certain now that it was less to do with spite and being vindictive but was really about having his spirit, owning his spirit…. Dark and unpallettable but fascinating.

Cheers

Yuri.

[imported_rwMember]

In many cultures where canabalism is practiced, it is part of a ritual to embue those eating the flesh with some embodiment of power from the person eaten. There are also the tales of warring tribes taking heads not just as trophys, but to gain some sort of power.

[imported_YURIMember]

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eating the flesh with some embodiment of power from the person eaten

That’s certainly very familiar to Jesus and his entourage; – ‘Drink this, this is my blood, eat this, this is my flesh’, type thing… ritual canabalism then practiced for thousands of years at every Catholic Mass… you dont really need to do a Mass backwards to create a ‘Black Mass’, it’s a pretty macabre thing already! lol

As I’ve said somewhere else, The Salome/John-the-B’s head part of the new testiment comes directly after Herod stressing that Jesus ‘has’ john’s spirit; then the Salome sketch is presented as if the two things were connected….. So the notion that Jesus and co believed in some kind (if only symbolic) self empowering canabalism is very interesting, and I think, all the more likely that they would desire J-the-B’s head; if only to use it to do miracles or have power over the people, as Herod was stressing.

[imported_supernaturalistMember]

Quote:

That’s certainly very familiar to Jesus and his entourage; – ‘Drink this, this is my blood, eat this, this is my flesh’, type thing… ritual canabalism then practiced for thousands of years at every Catholic Mass… you dont really need to do a Mass backwards to create a ‘Black Mass’, it’s a pretty macabre thing already! lol

You’re right Yuri, though it had never occured to me. Some opponents of early Christianity made the charge that the christians were cannibals because of this (centuries later we used the same charge against witches and heretics of various stripes). You should see the gospel of John, chapter 6:54-56

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Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day; for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them.

It’s an old idea for sure. In the Egyptian Pyramid Texts there is the so-called ‘Cannibal Hymn’ (I can’t give Utterance references at the moment), in which the king steadily consumes the gods, which probably indicates his attaining to their power or various states of consciousness.

Back to the head of JtheB, I am intrigued by this idea that it might have found its way into the possession of Jesus and his group. I have been thinking about some other of Jesus’ activities. Look at this from Mark 9:2-5

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Six days later, Jesus took with him Peter and James and John, and led them up a high mountain apart, by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his clothes became dazzling white, such as no one on earth could bleach them. And there appeared to them Elijah with Moses, who were talking with Jesus.

Jesus was apparently interested in contacting with the dead, in this case Moses and Elijah (we christians have been a bit hard on mediums, considering that Jesus appears here to be a powerful physical medium). Later on, as they were coming down the mountain, there is an interesting exchange about Elijah in verses 11-13.

Quote:

Then they asked him, “Why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” He said to them, “Elijah is indeed coming first to restore all things. How then is it written about the Son of Man, that he is to go through many sufferings and be treated with contempt? But I tell you that Elijah has come, and they did to him whatever they pleased, as it is written about him.”

Jesus evidently thought that JtheB was Elijah. Perhaps he did possess the head in order to ‘maintain contact’? OK, it’s a bit wild.

Michael

[imported_YURIMember]

Hi Michael,

Very interesting. I came to all this from a ‘Graal’ research perspective, in the first grail book (arguably) ‘The High History of the Holy Graal’ the Graal is simply described as the ‘Sacred Vessel’ (not a cup) of the last supper, and the earliest Welsh story ‘Peredur’ describes it as ‘a head swimming in blood’.

Contemporary medieval sources describe a ‘Graal’ or ‘Geraldis’ as a large platter… specifically a communal ‘buffet’ type thing. a very large dish, upon which would be placed a large joint of meat, around which would be a moat of gravy… you take off what meat you want, dunk it into the gravy and enjoy the rest of the banquet.

So ‘large platter’ and a ‘head swimming in blood’… easy to connect to Salome who asked for John’s head on a platter… reading between the lines, it appears that Jesus had John’s spirit (the head on platter)…. The High History says the Graal is the Sacred Vessel of the last supper,

Here, (John 13:26)

“Jesus answered, “It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish”. Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. as soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him“.

(Matthew 26:23)

“Jesus said, “The one who has dipped his hands into the bowl with me will betray me”.

The curious thing too, with all this bread-dipping, is that it is Jesus himself who tells us to consider the ‘bread’ to be ‘flesh’… so he’s dipping ‘his’ flesh into ‘the bowl’ giving it to Judas, and as he does so, a dark spirit (satan) enters into Judas because (presumably) of what he has/ or is about to, consume?

It’s all very odd.

[imported_MadDanEcclesMember]

Would this have any connection with the extremely strong taboo Jews have against consuming blood in any form because, as the Bible explicitly states, that would entail absorbing the life-force of another creature? It’s interesting that Jesus was responsible for a post-Judaic religion which totally ignored all previous dietary prohibitions.

Of course, the Jews may well have pinched the whole idea of monotheism from Akhenaten, the only recorded monotheist who predated Judaism. And the Egyptians took the idea of spiritual life being intimately connected with the physical body even after death to extraordinary levels of obsessive complexity.

And then you’ve got that old pre-Christian Celtic Grail-type object originally owned by Bran, whose severed headcontinued to live and protect Britain from invasion in some way, though he seems to have slipped up on the Normans, who cunningly built their greatest fortress on the burial-site of Bran’s head – the Tower of London.

Of course, some time before that, we had Arthur, an allegedly Christian king with Grail connections, yet whose senior advisor was the half-human son of one of the Old Gods (unspecified, and later officially designated as Satan, so we end up with a Christian allegory in which a reformed Antichrist is one of the good guys – how weird is that, eh?). Arthur, naturally, carried on Bran’s habit of remaining semi-alive in some kind of post-mortem defensive mode in case of invasion (he too wasn’t all that effective against the Normans, but it seems to have worked against Hitler).

And we haven’t even discussed those Templars and their mysterious idol Baphomet – possibly another sacred head… It’s all rather confusing, really… By the way, if Dan Brown was determined to rip off some dodgy potboiler with a weird theory about Jesus for his even dodgier potboiler, wouldn’t it have been so much more fun if he’d chosen “The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross”?

[imported_YURIMember]

Lol Dan. nice post!

re, Bran’s head and the coming of the Normans; The welsh Triads lament (as one of many three tragedies) Arthur, removing Bran’s Head, deeming that only he, (Arthur) should protect Britain and no other force; so Brans head wasnt there when the Normans arrived.

Interesting tho, are the many ‘head’ connections to the Holy Grail, and that Joseph of Arimathea is connected to the Grail. Bran is called ‘The Blessed’ because he is responsible for inviting Christianity to the British Isles, which if legends are true, came in the guise of Jo of A… So there is a connection (albeit it really vague) between Bran and the Graal.

Another curio, is that the so-called “Normans’ (although some were of Viking descent) the majority were old ‘Celtic/Btittonic’ aristocracy of Brittany and Normandy….. So the coming of the Normans can also be seen as the return of the Britons…. the Saxons never made a hero out of Arthur, that never happened until Norman Briton… why should Vikings make a hero out of an old Welsh King?

[imported_supernaturalistMember]

This thread just keeps getting better and better. Sadly, I don’t think I can keep up the momentum, but I need to comment on a few points (almost wrote ‘pints’ there – well, it is Friday).

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It’s interesting that Jesus was responsible for a post-Judaic religion which totally ignored all previous dietary prohibitions.

That only applies to the version of Christianity that eventually managed to exterminate the others. From Paul’s letters it is clear that Peter and others were still firm believers in keeping the Jewish Torah, including its dietary laws. The book of Acts was written by a Pauline supporter, and its account of things should be taken with a pinch of salt. After their time there are plenty of references to groups such as the Nazareans and Ebionites who also took the ‘Jewish’ line (although the Ebionites were apparently vegetarian – good on them!).

Re Yuri’s posts about JtheB and the Graal. One thought is that if the sacred vessel of the Last Supper is connected to JthB, perhaps his skull was fashioned into a chalice, maybe kept alongside the platter upon which Salome had his head served up. But then, perhaps talking about JtheB’s actual head is a red-herring, and it is a symbol for John’s spirit or something.

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he’s dipping ‘his’ flesh into ‘the bowl’ giving it to Judas, and as he does so, a dark spirit (satan) enters into Judas

Perhaps the dark spirit is JthB who, miffed about Jesus upstaging him, has a hissy fit and decides to push Judas into betraying Jesus!

There’s a link to an article on the Ephesus thread about the transmission of an esoteric Johannine stream to Celtic Britain in the early centuries. Perhaps this stream involved traditions about JtheB which found its way into various traditions, including the grail. One of the interesting things I liked about Graham Phillips grail book was the idea that the grail stories hint at an alternative apostolic succession.

The Bran/Norman stuff is interesting. So, the Normans were allowed in because they were the true Brits coming back to wup some Saxon bottoms. Looks sound to me.

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It’s all very odd.

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It’s all rather confusing, really

Definitely agree on that one!

Michael

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