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sitting on the floor with my arms outstretched and somehow embodied Michael

I think you might have hit the nail on the head re the question “What can you do to ‘protect’ yourself?” From my own ritual experiences I would say that what is trying to be achieved in ritual is an identification with archetypes, energies, whatever – embodying those things if you like. Perhaps possession is mostly an unfortunate case of embodying negative forces, which isn’t to say that actual entities may be able to use people in this state (as ‘lighter’ entities may be able to operate through people embodying more positive qualities). You don’t need rituals to do this; they are mostly tools to tune the consciousness, and I happen to enjoy them, but a positive attitude probably does the trick most of the time.

Michael

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But who’s the weird guy writing all those books on alchemists and swords and stuff?

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Cheers Simon, I thought it was just me. It’s nice and nippy again now.

Michael

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Yuri, I’m veggie as well so quorn goats will be just dandy; Beltane’s comin’ up, it’s time to keep your appointment with the Wicker Man.

G, I like your point – if something bad starts happening, at least you know what you’re doing has some sort of reality. Reminds me of an anecdote I’ve heard about Crowley, saying that it’s quite something to be knocked over by a demon whose existence you had doubted only minutes earlier

As for knowing when enough is enough, I guess that would depend on how bad things were getting and how much of a masochist you are.

We seem to have been discussing dangers in terms of bad things that can happen (madness, illness, injury, death, Dan’s time-travelling satanic dentists, etc). I’ve been wondering about more subtle dangers, if danger is the right term. If you seem to be in contact with entities, or are being led to this, that and the other, is it possible you’re just being spun a yarn and used as a plaything by denizens of the otherworld? Makes me think a bit of AC’s ‘Morphians’. Are they guiding us, or just mucking about? Anyone ever felt like they were being led a merry dance?

Michael

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I half want to defend my comments and say that I was contrasting two ‘negative’ approaches to the otherworld, one which regards it as evil and the other as merely a distraction. And I did say ‘some’ mystics. However, I did make something of a generalisation there; divine union is just a single experience on a spectrum of ‘mystical’ experiences, and a single goal among many. My wrists have been rightfully slapped. Ow.

Re divine union

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I have no desire for this ‘ultimate’ result… does that then make me evil?

Well Yuri, yup, I guess it does Just kidding! To label someone as evil because you disagree with them is an evil.

There are any number of views on (1) what is meant by divine, and (2) what is meant by union. I’ll leave (1), because it would be wildly off-topic and because I go with the apophatic school that says that the divine is ultimately beyond description and understanding. As far as (2) goes, union doesn’t necessarily have to be absorbtion, or ‘hanging around’. I don’t know what the International Order of Kabbalists teach, but there isn’t a single Kabbalistic idea either. The way I see it (and my views are subject to change, so don’t hold me to this forever), divine union is already an ontological reality. All things subsist in the divine, they wouldn’t exist if they did not, and are a manifesting or unfolding of the divine (though there might be some flaws). So, to me, divine union is more the conscious realisation of this – not in the sense of cognizing it as a ‘fact’, but in the sense of truly knowing it in one’s entire being: the kingdom of God is within and among you. The desire for that is indeed an ego-trip; like the Buddhists say (or some Buddhists), the desire for enlightenment is itself attachment and needs to be put aside. It is a goal that is to be sought but not desired. Now, I’ve not achieved this, so I could be completely wrong about it all. But I trust that the divine, or the universe, or whatever, doesn’t mind (or care) if I have the wrong idea about things.

The question of what is evil seems relevent to the thread, seeing that so many of my dear brethren and sistren would see my interest in what the Mrs calls ‘my dodginess’ as putting my hapless soul in eternal peril. It is a hard question though, it is so easy to be glib about evil and try and make it something that’s not really all that bad. I agree with Yuri though, I think state-sponsored spiritual apathy qualifies, along with all that corporate advertising that wants us all to be little more than ‘consumers’. At least part of the problem is un-consciousness, so opening up to the realities hidden in the otherworld can only be a good thing.

I find this sort of stuff really interesting, but I’m starting to go off-topic again. Granted that there are dangers, as there are in all life, is there anything we can or should do to protect ourselves against some of them? I like Yuri’s advise:

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enjoy its warmth, be inspired by it, but keep a safe distance also, treat it and yourself respectfully. Be foolish and you’ll get burnt

However, when it comes to otherworld are we like children? It can be a familiar environment but also unfamiliar, and do we always know what is dangerous and what isn’t? Perhaps we just have to learn through experience, but what can we do if we do get badly burned?

Michael

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I can’t remember what (if anything) I contributed to the earlier debate, so if I contradict myself then I’ve changed my mind or dabbling has made me crackers (or both).

My more fundamentalist co-religionists point to those who have had bad experiences and say that it’s proof that such things are ‘of the devil’. Some mystics warn that the dangers are more subtle, that engaging with otherworldly things are a diversion from the ultimate goal of divine union.

I agree that there are potential risks to engaging with the things behind the surface of ourselves and the world around us. But you have to remember that there are potential risks to engaging with the surface itself. This world can be an ambiguous place, and it appears to me that the otherworld isn’t much different. I would guess that just as some people lead a charmed life while others run into all the crap, some never encounter any trouble on a psychic level while others do. But to avoid engaging with the otherworld altogether would be the psychic equivalent of not going out of your house in case you get run down, catch a disease, attract a psycho, or because nipping down to the shops is taking you away from your meditation.

So that’s my reponse to (1). As far as basic precautions go, wasn’t there a discussion on this a while back? Do you need to use protection such as the kabbalistic cross, cone o’ power, magic circles, etc, and does it do any good? And if it does do any good, can you still get unlucky? And if you do get unlucky, what can you do about it? As you can see, I’m not attempting that one!

My best to you all,

Michael

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You might already know about this one Yuri, but I’ve just come across it in the last week or so. It is a dialogue between James and the risen Jesus from the Apocryphon of James. The text doesn’t say which James, it is assumed to be James the brother of Jesus. According to Dankart Kirchner (who treats it in “New Testament Apocrypha Volume One: Gospels and Related Writings” edited by Wilhelm Schneemelcher, 1991) it is arguable on grounds of comparison to other texts to date the Apocryphon as early as the second half of the first century, and no later than the mid-second century. He also thinks it has a Syrian/Palestinian origin.

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Then I asked him, “Lord, how shall we be able to prophesy to those who request us to prophesy to them? For there are many who ask us, and look to us to hear an oracle from us.”
The Lord answered and said, “Do you not know that the head of prophecy was cut off with John?”
But I said, “Lord, can it be possible to remove the head of prophecy?”
The Lord said to me, “When you come to know what ‘head’ means, and that prophecy issues from the head, (then) understand the meaning of ‘Its head was removed.’ At first I spoke to you in parables, and you did not understand; now I speak to you openly, and you (still) do not perceive. Yet, it was you who served me as a parable in parables, and as that which is open in the (words) that are open.

You can also find the full text at the excellent Gnostic Society Library: [url:3kmfblb9]http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/jam.html[/url]

According to Kirchner the pre-Easter Jesus has to speak in parables because he is unable to speak as a prophet and revealer since the ‘head of prophecy’ was cut off with John, whereas the risen Jesus is able to speak as a revealer. I’m not sure if that is a reasonable interpretation or not (perhaps when Jesus says he is speaking openly rather than in parables he just means that he isn’t speaking figuratively when he is talking about the ‘head of prophecy’?), but it’s certainly an interesting identification of the power of prophecy with the person of JtheB, or at least his head, and dated (probably) to within a hundred years at most of John’s beheading.

Edit: I should have checked 21st Century Grail to see if its in there before posting, as I reckon that there is a good chance that it might be. Oh well, I’ve posted now.
Edit: Nope, don’t think it’s in there.

Michael

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I think you might be right Simon. I did originally think “Estuary English – must be Andy Collins”, but I couldn’t hear anything else unusual and that was the only bit I had problems with Amusing if it is AC, especially with the reversed “sense of humour” comment!

And I thought my hearing was quite good!

Best,

Michael

edit: Listened again, and the end bit does have more of an electronic quality to it than AC’s voice at the start of the clip. Still don’t hear anything in the middle except what sounds like something being moved.

[imported_supernaturalistMember]

File #16, the whisper sounds like “too late” or “to lake”? A comment on AC’s chances of getting the Green Stone?

File #20, I assume the EVP is supposed to be the last few seconds, as it’s pretty hard to hear what is being said and I can’t hear anything else. If so then it is undeniably a voice. After several listens it sounds like “Course for a week i’ set sumayet”; the last sounds like it is meant to be “som’et like that” in a sort of Thames Estuary accent. Much better is if I reverse the audio; it’s much clearer and seems to be saying “Any sense of humour though”?

Looking again at AC’s article I noted that these occured on the eveining of Monday 20th Feb, and I have a few things in my journal for that day and the couple of days after. Not likely relevent, but I’ll share them anyway:

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20th Feb:
A meditation at the end of my lunch-hour, about 2pm, just following my breathing: had an impression of an old man’s face, grimacing, toothless? Then an image of a horseshoe. Then the word ‘love’.

21st Feb:
During the day I recieve a call on my mobile, and when I answer I get silence. Had one like that the week before as well.

Attempted to record Cherry Gilchrist Alchemy lecture at University (6.30pm), and the mp3 player refused to do anything. Eventually, a few minutes into the lecture, I finally got it working – I thought. But when I stopped it at the end of the lecture, the file just disappeared.

I woke up that night, about 2.30 I think, and saw something hovering in the air beside the side of the bed on my side. I looked at it for a few moments, trying to see in the darkness what it was; it was a spotlight lamp like one I have down in the cellar (not turned on). As soon as I realized what it was it just faded away. Didn’t get back to sleep for an hour or so afterwards.

22nd Feb:
Getting ready for work in the morning, I turned on my mobile and got an alert that I had an answering machine message. The message was left at 05:07 in the morning, and was a few seconds of silence. I’ve only had the phone and this number since my birthday (21 Jan folks – don’t forget!), and have only given it out to two or three people, one of them being my wife. Recycled number? Call centre? But why call at 05:07?

A quarter of an hour later I had just finished reading the chapter in The Green Stone about the psychic attack on AC and GP’s flat on Imbolc 1980. Then I noticed the buzzing alarm of the alarm clock going. I went back to the bedroom and stopped it – it was 07:15. We have a CD for the alarm, and it had been playing since 06:23 when the alarm is set to go off. Now, the buzzing alarm does go if for any reason it has a problem starting the CD, but if it encounters a problem with the CD later while playing then it just stops. Odd.

Later on I check my mp3 player to see if I can find the recording, but there is no file. I’ve used it like this before but I checked the instructions, and I was definitely using it correctly. How annoying!
*******************************

Nothing amazing there I will admit, just a string of slightly odd (with one annoying) things of a mostly electronic nature in a brief period, but there’s no harm in sharing I suppose. Since then I’ve not really had anything interesting happen, and no more silent mobile calls or messages.

Regards,

Michael

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Hmmm, now if Yuri’s idea has anything to it (not that he would be able to lay claim to it ), then even the fakers and frauds need to pull their ideas from somewhere. It seems to me that Dea might have a brother or sister, the ancient god or goddess of disinformation, misdirection and downright porkies. Hang about, sounds like that would be the Demiurge, unwitting maker of the illusory world, and Dea would be Sophia.

Michael

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Ah, I only brought up the spiritual healing thing because of the placebo effect. I’m not really addressing the fake artifacts issue – I don’t see much point in doing it (faking artifacts that is, rather than addressing the issue). I’m really addressing (probably not too well, but it was a few posts ago now!) the original question of whether you need a powerful psychic or physical medium to make questing a worthwhile proposition to begin with. I think the placebo evidence may well have a bearing on this, where the important factor turns out not to be the healer but the openness of the person being healed. If your would-be questors are open to the possibility of questing, then that might enable them to connect with whatever it is that produces results (which may or may not mean physical artifacts). Into this scenario you might get someone who pretends that they are psychically gifted, or who believes themselves to be so. Perhaps it doesn’t matter too much if the results don’t depend on the alleged powers of a single individual (and who knows – the pretend or delusional psychic might themselves end up churning out valid material in spite of themselves).

I’m really challenging the supposition that you need a good physical medium, which is where we started. As we don’t understand the ins and outs of high strangeness (well, I don’t anyway), to think that you need a powerful individual to get started is quite an assumption.

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Re the placebo, I saw a programme in Feb on Spiritual Healing. It had its failings I thought, but did highlight some interesting experiments -

In an experiment where some people were treated by a real spiritual healer and others by an actor pretending to be a healer, both groups improved by the same amount.

In similar experiment some people received surgery on their knee, while others went through an elaborate charade of having the same surgical operation. Those who had the fake surgery also healed.

In an experiment on people with Alzheimer’s, the brains of a group injected with saline began to produce Dopamine.

What this seemed to show was that the healing power wasn’t coming from the healer, as has been said here, but from within the person being healed. The healer’s role seems to be to facilitate a person’s own abilities. So perhaps having a psychic/medium really acts to bring out the latent abilities within others by making them believe something will happen. In which case a charlatan might do just as well. But then would they really be a charlatan? Aren’t powerful magical figures in mythology often also tricksters?

Michael

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Hello all,

Interesting question. I’ve never witnessed an apport materialising or dug a suspected apport out of the dirt, but AC’s books and interviews contain enough eyewitness accounts that I’m prepared to accept that they occur.

Dan’s question does appear to presuppose that apports only occur in the presence of physical mediums. However, unless anyone can claim to understand exactly how apports are produced then I think that this assumption can certainly be questioned. The presence of a strong psychic may well catalyse the appearance of an apport, but perhaps there are other factors that can act as the catalyst; maybe the act of going on a quest in itself can generate the necessary conditions.

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The only problem is that of course it turned out that Andy had misinterpreted a piece of bog-standard heraldry in such a way that it looked unusual enough to be a clue, whereas in fact it wasn’t!

I can’t remember the details of the story or how important this was. However, I would suggest that this could be a synchronicity. Whether you accept such things depends on your world-view, but by definition a synchronicty is a meaningful connection between things that have no regular causal link. So, there is no causal link between the heraldic what-not and the location of the green stone, i.e. the heraldry wasn’t a deliberate signifier. However, the universe might have arranged itself such that the heraldic thingumy is meaningful in the context of the green stone quest. Like I said, whether you accept this as a possibility depends on your world-view. Like Perceval, I go through times when I’m surrounded by apparent synchronicities.

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I think this is an important practical point which doesn’t really get unambiguously answered in the literature

Is anything in this area unambiguous? The ambiguity is simultaneously one of the most frustrating things, and one of the things that makes it all interesting.

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is Psychic Questing totally impossible, and are you therefore wasting your time trying to get started

Well, if you don’t try and get started you certainly wont get anywhere! Perhaps it will turn out to be a waste of time in terms of finding artifacts, but there is the chance of good times on the way, meeting interesting people, certainly broadening your horizons and learning a lot about the world and yourself – and in my opinion that is a worthwhile (even more important) quest in itself, even if not very exciting for others to read about. It beats vegging in front of the Idiot’s Lantern anyway!

Happy questing everyone

Michael

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I know Yuri, the ‘ducking and diving evidence’ is frustrating. There are lots of things that are suggestive of …something, but its all very conjectural. If ever a quest needed an physical artifact to turn up and provide some indisputable evidence, this is one. Alas, I fear the cosmic joker wont allow it! But who knows?

I’m looking forward to seeing the Franks Casket for myself at the end of April. Hmmmmm, indeed. (As a bonus there is a Michaelangelo exhibition also at the British Museum, and an exhibition on Gothic Art at Tate Britain.)

Michael

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This thread just keeps getting better and better. Sadly, I don’t think I can keep up the momentum, but I need to comment on a few points (almost wrote ‘pints’ there – well, it is Friday).

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It’s interesting that Jesus was responsible for a post-Judaic religion which totally ignored all previous dietary prohibitions.

That only applies to the version of Christianity that eventually managed to exterminate the others. From Paul’s letters it is clear that Peter and others were still firm believers in keeping the Jewish Torah, including its dietary laws. The book of Acts was written by a Pauline supporter, and its account of things should be taken with a pinch of salt. After their time there are plenty of references to groups such as the Nazareans and Ebionites who also took the ‘Jewish’ line (although the Ebionites were apparently vegetarian – good on them!).

Re Yuri’s posts about JtheB and the Graal. One thought is that if the sacred vessel of the Last Supper is connected to JthB, perhaps his skull was fashioned into a chalice, maybe kept alongside the platter upon which Salome had his head served up. But then, perhaps talking about JtheB’s actual head is a red-herring, and it is a symbol for John’s spirit or something.

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he’s dipping ‘his’ flesh into ‘the bowl’ giving it to Judas, and as he does so, a dark spirit (satan) enters into Judas

Perhaps the dark spirit is JthB who, miffed about Jesus upstaging him, has a hissy fit and decides to push Judas into betraying Jesus!

There’s a link to an article on the Ephesus thread about the transmission of an esoteric Johannine stream to Celtic Britain in the early centuries. Perhaps this stream involved traditions about JtheB which found its way into various traditions, including the grail. One of the interesting things I liked about Graham Phillips grail book was the idea that the grail stories hint at an alternative apostolic succession.

The Bran/Norman stuff is interesting. So, the Normans were allowed in because they were the true Brits coming back to wup some Saxon bottoms. Looks sound to me.

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It’s all very odd.

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It’s all rather confusing, really

Definitely agree on that one!

Michael

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