Origin of the four ‘GRAIL HALLOWS’

[imported_YURIMember]

I thought that it would be good to have a thread for debating ideas about the pre-Christian origin of the ‘Grail Hallows’… so, typed this up earlier as an intro; can anyone add to it?

ORIGIN OF THE FOUR GRAIL HALLOWS

The origin of the four Grail Hallows (and the suits of the Tarot deck, appear to go back to the ancient dawn of Iron Age ‘celtic’ Ireland and the coming of the gods and goddesses, who are collectively known as the Tuatha de Danann.

Where the Danann came from is unknown; some say from the sky, some say from another realm and some say ‘the southern isles of the world’. They were gods and goddesses of amazing magical abilities.

From the place that they had come from, were said to be four mythical cities which were called Findias, Gorias, Murias, and Falias; in these great cities they studied and mastered the arts of poetry and magic (the two sciences were really one and the same thing back then.)

When the Tuatha de Danann first arrived in Ireland, they brought with them a sacred treasure from each of the four cities.

From Findias came the sword of the god Nuada, from whose stroke no one ever escaped or recovered; from Gorias came the terrible lance that belonged to the god Lugh; from the city of Murias came the sacred cauldron of the Dagda; and from Falias came the stone of Fal, better known as the ‘stone of destiny’ upon which all the kings of Ireland were made king.

These four objects, which are obviously prototypical of the Sword, Lance, Bowl, and Stone of Arthurian grail romance, and also of the suits from the Tarot; – Swords, Wands, Cups, and Discs… (interestingly, the four cities are thought to be situated in each of the four directions, so they are also representing the four quarters of a magic circle and also the four elements of earth air fire and water.)

The pre-Christian origin of these icons is obviously a strongly embedded set of icons in the deep consciousness of the European peoples.

The ‘Grail Hallows’ of (collective) Arthurian romance appear to be a garbled memory of Celtic origin combined with the ‘new’ relic symbolism (popular in the medieval period) of the Lance and Cup of Jesus’ death story and the Sword and Platter/dish of John the Baptist’ death story… as Jesus and J the B both represent the years solstices, they are still representing the ‘directional symbolism’ of the Four sacred cities.

[imported_SimonMember]

Yuri, coincidentally I came across this recently but from the perspective of sacred directions. I mapped out the 4 cities with scribbled notes as follows:

Fáilias (North, Stone of Destiny, Lia Fail, sage=Morias)
Gorias (East, Sword, sage=Euras)
Finias (South, Spear (of Destiny?), sage=Arias)
Murias (West, submerged (Atlantis?), Cauldron of Plenty/Cup (Grail?), Semias )

(Aside: Their family tree is descended from a “Noe” and there is mention of a deluge.)

This got me to wondering whether a sunken island always in the West (even in the Americas)? Or are Summer Isles always in the South (regardless of hemisphere)? If so these could be archetypal directions – or even locations in the otherworld – rather than relating to physical directions (or even the vague memories of physical directions) as the myths would tend to indicate.

[imported_supernaturalistMember]

There is a reference in Mesopotamian myths to emblems or tokens of kingship. I checked quickly and in the myth of Adapa or Etana (I’ve forgotten which already!) these are numbered at four – after the flood they are in heaven and have to descend once more to the earth to re-instate kingship. They are the crown, the sceptre, the tiara and the shepherd’s crook. Different from the treasures of the Tuatha de Danann, but there does appear to be an underlying common theme: the return of kingship to earth with the four tokens and the arrival of the TdD in Ireland with the four treasures.

Also important in a lot of Mesopotamian myths is the Tablet of Destiny: possessing it grants control over the cosmos (something like that anyway) and it is linked with kingship, or at least kingship amongst the gods. In the Enuma Elish Marduk wins the Tablet of Destiny from Kingu and fastens it to his breast, thus securing his position as king over the gods. Sounds similar to the Stone of Destiny.

[imported_YURIMember]

Thanks for the interesting posts, chaps. I havent been ignoring them, just quietly contemplating; will get back to this later.

[imported_supernaturalistMember]

I thought I had better check on what I said about the Mesopotamian thing, if only for my own satisfaction. I read the stories properly this time and the myth that I meant is Etana (I was probably confusing Etana and Adapa because in both the hero makes a journey to heaven – my memory is so bad). Etana is the first king of Kish after the flood. In the Old Babylonian Version (OBV), which is the oldest known version dating to sometime just after the beginning of the 2nd millenium BCE, it mentions the crown, headband, sceptre and staff as the tokens of kingship laid up in heaven before the high god Anu. The crown and headband apparently combine to form a single headpiece – the band circling the head and the crown sitting on top, presumably covering the head.

The later Standard Version doesn’t have those lines but does refer to the crown, headband, sceptre and throne. I gather that the OBV mentions both groups within a few lines of each other, but I can’t be sure about that.

The Etana story also refers to the creators of the four world regions, which are mentioned just before the four tokens of kingship. To my mind this suggests (though obviously it doesn’t prove) a relationship between each region and one of the tokens. If so it makes a nice piece of comparative mythology with the four treasures of the TdD.

I’m sure Andrew Collins must have mentioned Etana in Ashes of Angels, as it sits nicely with his theories (it has a tree with an eagle (=vulture?) at the top and serpent at the bottom, and what reads to me like a shamanic voyage of Etana to heaven on the back of the eagle). Etana is one of the few stories attested in art; ancient cylinder seals have been found showing Etana on the eagles back (I got this from Stephanie Dalley in ‘Myths from Mesopotamia’), which I guess might show the antiquity of the story. If there is some kind of relationship between these Mespopotamian and Celtic myths then perhaps the idea of the grail hallows go back a long, long way.

Edit – I don’t know what anyone thinks about the old Heritage material that Andrew Collins and Graham Phillips put together donkey years ago, but regarding links between Etana and the Celts, copies of Etana were found at Amarna. For what it’s worth.

[imported_YURIMember]

Thought I’d pull this one up again just as an offshoot of the Body harvesting thread.

http://www.psychicquesting.com/ftopic-61-0.html

The High History of the Holy Grail (possibly the orginal Grail book…. but its debateble… could be Chretiens ‘Le Cont du Graal’ (both, incidentally call the Graal a bowl, not a cup))

The High History, interestingly, also tells the story of Sir Gawain going on quest to find the Sword that decapitated John the Baptist… if the Graal is the ‘dish’ upon which John’s head was given to Salome; then the first graal story/ies seem to be veiled Johannite mystery; and more comcerned with John than it is concerned with Jesus.

But I think, both Jesus and John are modern varients of the four hallows;

Jesus = Lance and Cup; mid winter
John = Dish and sword; mid summer.

But the Grail legends could also be concealed knowledge of an alternative apostolic succession than Peter and Rome… hence the need to conceal within story.

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