Goethe Anecdote

[imported_SimonMember]

I came across this anecdote while reading a biography of Rudolph Steiner recently. With the psychic information backed up by subsequent research it seems like a good (but possibly atypical) example of a piece of psychic questing. Does anyone else agree – or does this stretch the concept of “psychic questing” too far?

“As a young man, Goethe had had a similar experience of imaginative vision at the cathedral at Strasbourg, when, after spending many days observing and sketching it from many sides and angles, and even curing himself of vertigo by repeatedly climbing its tower, he remarked to some friends that the building was incomplete. His friends were astonished and asked how he knew; after looking at the original plans, they saw he was correct. Who, they asked, had told him? Goethe replied that the cathedral itself had. “I observed it so long and so attentively and I bestowed on it so much affection that it decided at the end to reveal to me its manifest secret.”

(quoted in “Rudolph Steiner” by Gary Lachman)

[imported_JosieMember]

Based on this post and another I responded to in a different thread, are you thinking in terms of Intuition and its genesis? There is an entire psychological theory about Intuition and its metaphysical aspects. All creativity comes from intuition, as do all ideas. So, where does intuition begin? Is it the “still small voice” of God? Is it archetypal in nature, gifts from generations before that have been buried in the unconscious? Does it evolved from the Shadow? Is it part of the collective unconscious at all?

There are those who say it is all of that, and those who say it is none. I find it fascinating, regardless.

So, to answer your question, no I don’t think it stretches it too far. I think it’s all part and parcel. At least, based on my (very) limited knowledge of psychic questing.

[imported_JosieMember]

Simon,

I did a bit of internet sleuthing for papers by Mike Arons (too lazy to look for my own copies ) and found the following link. To tell you a little of Dr. Arons, he is a genius (I did say a “little”).

Anyway, check out the following link, please, and see if it gives you any insight to your question. It may, or, it may not. It’s worth a shot, as I see it.

Also, just in case you’re unaware, Goethe is said to be Jung’s great-grandfather through an illegitimate child. Jung was well aware of this, and Goethe’s Faust was a very heavy influence on his theories. Just an FYI because I find that interesting.

http://www.westga.edu/~psydept/arons-intuition.html

[imported_SimonMember]

Hi Josie,

Many thanks for your replies (haven’t read the full article you linked but it looks excellent). The Jung-Goethe biological link is particularly important and I’d quite forgotten that information. I love to quote Daniel Pinchbeck on this: “I suspect I am working through some business left over from my heritage, as if mystical yearnings run, like rogue genes, in family trees.” Jung himself talks about (I think in Memories, Dreams, Reflections) the ghosts of ancestors looking over your shoulder to see how you tackle the same challenges that occur over and over in families.

In fact my particular starting point on all of this is from the perspective of “Vocation” (perhaps my own family’s issue ). In essence I see a modern society in which people are increasingly alienated. We are a fallen race. In some distant time, we feel, we lived in a state of blissful union with the universe but somehow we lost this connection and find ourselves strangers in a world full of suffering.

Victor Frankl during his horrific experiences in the concentration camps realised that humans have a need for *meaning* that, amazingly, goes deeper than the core biological imperatives (e.g. survival). Meaning is what allows us to re-connect to the “blissful” state but meaning in a post-modern world is hard to come by when all the traditional meta-narratives have been “debunked” and we live in a state of permanent suspicion.

(Aside: This is why Mulder’s cry of “I want to believe” is so poignant in the X-Files. Also for an example of a narrative unfolding before our eyes where the tools and techniques of suspicious interpretation – “the hermeneutics of suspicion” – the Madeleine McCann case springs immediately to mind (not sure how much play this gets in the US – I guess a more US-oriented example would be the school of suspicion about the moon landings)).

Living in the privileged West, we have most of our basic needs taken care of, and are generally “empowered” to do what we want. We are all well-versed in the setting and attaining of personal goals – but what goals do we set that will give us this sense of meaning and connection? As the Sex Pistols memorably snarled: “Don’t know what I want but I know to get it!” Clearly, fame and fortune won’t do the trick – ask Britney or any one of the hundreds of celebrities who suddenly achieve their “fame and fortune” goals and are then left with a vacuum.

For me, then, “vocation”, which is a usefully unfashionable word and one I use in the looser sense of any personal calling, is the route to discover our own individual meaning. It is not tied to any single meta-narrative but is rather weaved through an eclectic patchwork of beliefs, experiences, relationships into a unique pattern. In this I guess my meaning is very close to Jung’s “Individuation” although the emphasis is more on the “call to individuation”.

Anyway (phew! I knew there was a relevant point in here somewhere), my hunch is that the Imagination is where you can experiment with your vocation (where, in fact, you can actually shape the material world around you to some extent – but that’s for another rant). Imagination is where the worlds of gods and man intersect – and psychic questing gives a framework for tackling the Imagination in a way that is likely to help us towards our vocation.

I appreciate that use of the word “imagination” in the context of psychic questing may make people think that I’m saying that psychic questing “is all made up” which is absolutely not the case (see my comments on affecting material reality above). When I use the word “imagination” I mean it in the sense of Jung/Goethe’s “Active Imagination” and, if I’ve understood you correctly, “Guided Imagery”. Sure it may start as a purely personal mental phenomenon but it quickly takes input from our immediate collective unconscious (the family challenges) and then from further afield. Again if I say that psychic questing is like a game of spiritual spin-the-bottle I mean that in the most constructive sense of a means of unblocking a stagnant situation and throwing you towards some interesting area which you would never have chosen to investigate yourself and which ultimately leads to a discovery that you would never have made.

Errr…I seem to have gone on a bit but hopefully that at least explains my focus on Imagination and Questing.

Does this make sense or have I lost the plot?

[imported_JosieMember]

Quote:

Many thanks for your replies

You’re quite welcome.

Quote:

(haven’t read the full article you linked but it looks excellent).

It is an excellent article, and has a link at the bottom to other papers and presentations by Mike. He’s a truly remarkable man, and I had the distinct privilege of studying under him for two years. I urge you to read some of his other papers, as well. I think you and he may have more in common than you realise.

Quote:

Jung himself talks about (I think in Memories, Dreams, Reflections) the ghosts of ancestors looking over your shoulder to see how you tackle the same challenges that occur over and over in families.

That’s exactly where he discusses the ghosts of ancestors. Wonderful book. I think the study and knowledge of Jung and his theories is important to psychic questing, as he himself was on a continual “psychic quest”. Or, so it seems to me. Jung’s psychology was a holistic psychology, with heavy emphasis on the spiritual and metaphysical. So much so that he referred to himself as a “doctor of the soul”. That’s one of the reasons I prefer his theories over others. His theories encompass the entirety of the human condition – not just the symptoms.

Quote:

n fact my particular starting point on all of this is from the perspective of “Vocation” (perhaps my own family’s issue Smile )

I search for various definitions of “vocation” and found this:
“the urge to follow specific career: a strong feeling of being destined or called to undertake a specific type of work, especially a sense of being chosen by God for religious work or a religious life”
And, it’s from the Latin vocare, “to call, or name”. I think that’s incredibly significant, and quite in line with psychic questing.

Quote:

In essence I see a modern society in which people are increasingly alienated. We are a fallen race

Completely agree.

Quote:

In some distant time, we feel, we lived in a state of blissful union with the universe but somehow we lost this connection and find ourselves strangers in a world full of suffering.

Adam and Eve in Paradise, only to fall and be cursed with suffering. Some believe this to be literal (as many Christians do) while others believe it to be mythologically important (as did Joseph Campbell). I personally feel it was a combination of both. Either way, I understand exactly what you’re saying. We fell (or leaped) away from perfection and suffering is the consequence.

Quote:

Meaning is what allows us to re-connect to the “blissful” state but meaning in a post-modern world is hard to come by when all the traditional meta-narratives have been “debunked” and we live in a state of permanent suspicion.

So then, how do we determine “meaning”, by this definition? From my perspective, “meaning” must come from the soul. It’s the core of our very being, where “meaning” resides. In order to determine our “meaning”, we must first learn to have discourse with the soul.

Quote:

This is why Mulder’s cry of “I want to believe” is so poignant in the X-Files

Also as an aside: I’m going to marry Mulder when I grow up. Never mind the fact that I’m 44 years old…

Quote:

Living in the privileged West, we have most of our basic needs taken care of, and are generally “empowered” to do what we want. We are all well-versed in the setting and attaining of personal goals – but what goals do we set that will give us this sense of meaning and connection?

I think we find “meaning” when we look inside ourselves, when we listen to our “still small voice” (regardless of what one believes that actually is) that points us toward what we are “called” to do. It’s that “call” that gives meaning. Following that specific path we are called to follow.

Quote:

Clearly, fame and fortune won’t do the trick – ask Britney or any one of the hundreds of celebrities who suddenly achieve their “fame and fortune” goals and are then left with a vacuum.

Absolutely. Poor Britney. She never found her path. In my opinion, she was pushed by her mother down a path she should never have ventured down. And, yes, I do feel sorry for her. I don’t approve of her actions, mind you, but I can understand why it’s all happened, and hope she finds her way.

Quote:

For me, then, “vocation”, which is a usefully unfashionable word and one I use in the looser sense of any personal calling, is the route to discover our own individual meaning.

Exactly.

Quote:

In this I guess my meaning is very close to Jung’s “Individuation” although the emphasis is more on the “call to individuation”.

That spark, or idea, or lightbulb that goes off and sheds light on the need to look for meaning in one’s life?

Quote:

Imagination is where the worlds of gods and man intersect – and psychic questing gives a framework for tackling the Imagination in a way that is likely to help us towards our vocation.

Your Imagination is Mike Arons’ Creativity, I do believe. Creativity comes from Intuition, and Intuition is that lightbulb that sheds light on our need to find meaning. Are you sure you’re not REALLY Mike Arons masquerading as Simon?

Quote:

Again if I say that psychic questing is like a game of spiritual spin-the-bottle I mean that in the most constructive sense of a means of unblocking a stagnant situation and throwing you towards some interesting area which you would never have chosen to investigate yourself and which ultimately leads to a discovery that you would never have made.

Synchronicity as a result of answering the call. Hence, psychic questing. Am I close to what you intended?

[imported_SimonMember]

Josie wrote:

In order to determine our “meaning”, we must first learn to have discourse with the soul.

Hi Josie – that’s it! That’s exactly what I’m getting at. In my terminology I would say that in order to determine our vocation we must first learn to have discourse with the (higher) Self – but that’s only semantics and you’ve articulated exactly what I’m trying to get at. My instinct/intuition tells me that psychic questing is a great way to do this discourse but I need to build up the argument for exactly why this is the case. However, that’s for another day I will come back to this post and pick up on some of your other points too. Later, Simon.

[imported_JosieMember]

I’m glad I could help. I look forward to more posts on this subject. I find it vastly interesting.

[imported_supernaturalistMember]

I’ve not read the Mike Arons article yet, nor have I read any Jung, but I’m going to throw in my own uneducated observation anyway.

Jospeph Campbell (who I’ve only just started reading) spoke about following your bliss. Bliss is the euphoric welling-up within oneself of that creative energy whose origin lies beyond time and space – it is transcendent. If you follow whatever it is that brings you bliss, you can become ‘transparent to the transcendent’. Sounds to me a little like what you are talking about re vocation and the finding of meaning.

Campbell talks about this in the context of the problem of our modern society that Simon touched upon. The traditional myths that in the past provided the route for people to become transparent to the transcendent have been ‘debunked’ for most. It seems to me that even for those who still hold to the old myths, our culture means that we take a literal approach to them which actually robs them of their power. Campbell also said that our society is constantly changing so fast that new myths don’t have time to develop or take hold. So we all need to find our own way, write our own myth.

I’ve thought for a little while that psychic questing has a mythic function, and the Meonia saga is almost like a foundational myth (which is perhaps why I personally find Meonia so fascinating). I might need to expand on that sometime, but I can say that what people discover in their various psychic quests does have that whiff of personal myth-making.

One of the things that psychic questing does do is unite the ‘feeling’, intuitive consciousness with the rational, analytic consciousness. Having said that it has often appeared that one person (the psychic) does the intuitive part while another (the researcher) does the rational part. Ideally we would unite the two in ourselves.

Enough of my rambling.

Michael

[imported_JosieMember]

Quote:

Jospeph Campbell (who I’ve only just started reading) spoke about following your bliss. Bliss is the euphoric welling-up within oneself of that creative energy whose origin lies beyond time and space – it is transcendent. If you follow whatever it is that brings you bliss, you can become ‘transparent to the transcendent’. Sounds to me a little like what you are talking about re vocation and the finding of meaning.

Joseph Campbell takes a fascinating approach to archetypal imagery, the study of myth, and its impact on the soul. I love the whole concept of following your bliss. Just love it. And yes, I do think that’s exactly what he’s talking about regarding vocation and the finding of meaning. Who says you’re uneducated?? Someone needs to teach them a thing a two.

You may want to read The Power Of Myth and also Hero With A Thousand Faces, both by Campbell. They’re an absolute must for those interested in Joseph Campbell.

Quote:

It seems to me that even for those who still hold to the old myths, our culture means that we take a literal approach to them which actually robs them of their power.

Are you referring to a superficial approach, doing whatever because that particular religion demands it rather than because that same whatever is felt in the soul?

Quote:

So we all need to find our own way, write our own myth.

Hence discovering meaning within the soul?

Quote:

I’ve thought for a little while that psychic questing has a mythic function, and the Meonia saga is almost like a foundational myth (which is perhaps why I personally find Meonia so fascinating).

The Meonia saga is extremely archetypal. Extremely. I think that’s why so many people are fascinated by it. So, yes, I can see where it could be seen as a foundational myth.

Quote:

I might need to expand on that sometime

Please do! I think that would be awesome.

Quote:

but I can say that what people discover in their various psychic quests does have that whiff of personal myth-making.

Can you elaborate on this, too?

Quote:

Ideally we would unite the two in ourselves.

Exactly.

Quote:

Enough of my rambling.

I’m loving your rambling. Please, ramble on! Quite frankly, that’s all I’m doing. I find that oftentimes the truth comes about through the rambling, and all sorts of wonderful discoveries are made.

Oh, before I forget – Archetypal Psychology. Look it up on Wikipedia. I think it will provide a lot of answers. James Hillman speaks to the soul and “calling”. I wasn’t familiar with him, but discovered this theory this morning. How’s that for syncronicity?

[imported_supernaturalistMember]

Hello Josie,

Josie wrote:

Who says you’re uneducated??

Well, I do if we’re talking about Jung and psychology in general. I am better educated in other areas.

Josie wrote:

You may want to read The Power Of Myth and also Hero With A Thousand Faces, both by Campbell. They’re an absolute must for those interested in Joseph Campbell.

At the moment buying new books is a no-no until I’ve made good progress through the piles of unread and partially read books that I have. I got ‘Pathways to Bliss’ as a Christmas present, following a recommendation from a couple of my spiritual mentors. Thanks for the recommendation though.

I wrote:

It seems to me that even for those who still hold to the old myths, our culture means that we take a literal approach to them which actually robs them of their power.

Take for example a myth very dear to me, namely the Christian myth. Some of the things written about in the gospels may really have happened, and though history is important at the end of the day it is – even if sacred history – still just history: in the past. Myth is something that is always present or at least able to break into our time and transform it. Our culture is steeped in rationalism however, and the tendency is to see the Christ myth as something that either happened in the past or didn’t, and there is a very emotive debate about its historicity. In this environment then even if you choose to believe it really happened, its power is largly limited to an encouragement to believe in God, in Christ and live a good and moral life.

It is possible for the myth to be more than this, to be a real doorway to the spiritual realm. Entering into the myth isn’t something anyone can do for you though, you have to do it yourself. Anyone who is seriously walking their path, whatever it is, is creating their own myth. I’m thinking in part of those tales of the saints; they trod their path and their stories became myths in themselves. I’m also thinking of what was said of the old Gnostics: the heresiologists complained that everyone was writing their own gospel. One day I may write the Gospel According to Michael.

Quote:

Quote:

I might need to expand on that sometime

Please do! I think that would be awesome.

Crumbs, I’ll need to give it some more thought.

Quote:

Quote:

but I can say that what people discover in their various psychic quests does have that whiff of personal myth-making.

Can you elaborate on this, too?

Again, I probably need to give it more thought, but even a psychic quest for an artifact is about much more than the artifact itself. The quest (a very mythic theme in itself) places the questor into a different relationship with the world, maybe even with the spiritual world. And the quest is frequently transformatory, perhaps changing the questors view of reality, even changing the questors life forever.

I’ve had a quick skim of the Archetypal Psychology page. Think I need to give it a slower skim though.

Cheers,

Michael

[imported_SimonMember]

supernaturalist wrote:

Hello Josie,

Josie wrote:

Who says you’re uneducated??

Well, I do if we’re talking about Jung and psychology in general. I am better educated in other areas.

Hi Michael,

I wouldn’t worry – I have a degree in Psychology and I’d say that in the three years we probably didn’t spend more than 5 days on Jung. Everything that’s made me the post-Jungian that I am today was extracurricular.

Josie’s mention of Hillman (above) is pertinent and his book, The Soul’s Code, is good – although I found it almost too biological at times. In other words it seemed to me that he was saying that, like the acorn, our vocation blueprint was “hardwired” into us and that we simply had to give in to its psychological imperative and it would take us where we should go.

The much more subtle (and to my mind “truer”) approach is beautifully expounded by James Hollis in his book “Creating a Life”. One passage in the opening chapter, which I quote to whoever is foolish to stand still near me for long enough, has been cited by several people as the thing that stuck in their mind and caused them to move job/change their lifestyle. It goes:

Quote:

The more you are like others, the more secure you will feel, yet the more your heart will ache, the more your dreams will be troubled and the more your soul will slip off into silences. Finally, one day, you will have forgotten that you have a soul – you will rise, drive through the traffic, arrive at work, and not remember how you got there.

His basic theory is that whatever you do the first half of your life will be a big, unavoidable mess and the second half is where you start to unpick it all and find your vocation.

Even he, however, doesn’t give practical techniques for the necessary “discourse with the soul” (other than undergoing Jungian psychotherapy which I guess is a high-cost option).

For this, I have been looking at Robert Johnson’s book called “Inner Work” which is all about Active Imagination (and Dreams). This is why I was originally intrigued by Josie’s synchronistic mention of Guided Imagery. (You might be pleased to know, Michael, that one of the chapters is entitled “Active Imagination as Mythic Journey”).

Apart from practical advice on how to go about Active Imagination, one of the really interesting ideas in the Johnson book is how he advises that what we discover in our internal milieu be taken and concretized in the material, outside world. He refers to this as “the Ritual”. He writes:

Quote:

We could state as a general principal that whenever you do any form of inner work and bring it to an insight or resolution, you should do something to make it concrete. Either do a physical ritual or, if appropriate, do something that will integrate it into the fabric of your practical daily life.

Hmmm….sounds familiar

[Author]

Posts