Michael (supernaturalist)

[imported_SimonMember]

Hi Michael,

Since this thread got stirred up again I realised that I had never properly explained my comments about the triangle formed by the three crooked lines. What I had in mind was something like this:
[img]http://www.simonjnugent.com/wordpress/wp-content/three_lines.JPG[/img]

(Sorry it’s a fairly rough sketch and all the lengths of the lines should be equal and the angles the same…but hopefully you get the idea.)

Every line sticks one end into the belly of another line and in turn gets another line stuck into its belly. Obviously you need to move the lines closer until they all join up.

My query is whether the symbol is rightly viewed as a triangle(with optional flourishes), which is what we’ve been focussing mostly on so far in this thread, or the three crooked lines as in the diagram above and in the three-legged Brigit’s cross. Or maybe both aspects are correct.

[imported_supernaturalistMember]

Thanks guys, I wasn’t expecting to see the thread fire up again. There has certainly been some interesting material thrown up, and I think it will take me a while to digest. Having said that, I’m going to inflict my thoughts on you all anyway.

I like the story about the witch and the hare. I believe that I’ve heard or read such stories before without ever thinking about the possible symbolism. I’m sure I’ve also heard variations where the ‘witch’ is a werewolf.

It seems to me that Perceval’s suggestion about the ears making the genitals of a triple goddess goes nicely with Simon’s earlier suggestion about them also forming a central womb shape, and also with the lines of the three-legged version of Brigit’s cross (the goddess Brigit having a triple aspect – so I’ve read anyway).

As to whether the correct way of viewing the crooked lines is as the three-legged cross or as a triangle, my own question is why does one have to be correct? My inclination is that both can be equally correct.

From looking at the websites that Perceval has pointed me to, I’ve also noted that the vesica piscis itself implies the number three in at least three ways:
1- it is a third shape created by interlocking two identical circles
2- the vertical line from the two ends is the square root of three (taking the radius of each circle to be one)
3- the centres of the circles (the widest point of the vesica piscis) together with the two ends creates within the v.p. two equalateral triangles.

As well as the recociliation of opposites it is also a creative shape, implied in the vulva shape (nice sheela-na-gig by the way). Within it can be derived the line, the triangle and the square. We have some strong fertility associations going on here.

Especially for Yuri, here is the Chalice Well:

(from [url:1wh1sun0]http://www.geomancy.org/sacred_geometry/sacgeo-5.html[/url])

Best Regards,

Michael

[imported_PercevalMember]

One more link for you, Michael. This seems to pull it all together nicely:
[url:1j6nx68c]http://www.aboutulverston.co.uk/celts/magatamas.htm[/url].

It’s fascinating to read the stuff about the Buddhist teaching on Dependent Relationship and the mystical interpretation of the Holy Trinity – seems to echo some of the ideas I mooted earlier.

By the way, a triangle formed by three interlacing circles is a Christian symbol of the Trinity (I suspected as much, but just read it in one of my reference books).

[imported_YURIMember]

The two interlacing circles, as with the ‘well head’ of Chalice Well (pictured above) is believed by most to represent heaven and earth, or this world and the otherworld; over-lapping each other; the inference of this is that it is representing a sacred place where the veil is thin, or where both realities can interact with each other…

So this has an obvious place in a church where the ‘presence’ of heaven is believed to be present… equally it makes sense with the Hare as a creature in the heavens who, along with Orion and dogs, goes in and out of the otherworld… alternating below and above the horizon.

Also of course, good old Sheela, and the womb IS the place where the other world (or ‘spirit’) is born into this physical world…

A great icon, like an Ogre (see Shrek) has layers! and should as this one does, on many levels.

[imported_supernaturalistMember]

Just a quickie: I think I’ve seen that web page on Buddhist/Celtic triskelion’s a while ago. What is interesting is that the Chinese scholars (last I heard) think that the hares originally come from Persia; the major site(s) where the hares are found also have a lot of imagery that is traceable to the Sassanian Empire. If so, then although not originally a Buddhist symbol, some Buddhists adopted it, seeing in it an illustration of their worldview, just as Christians later adopted it and saw in it something else. And why not?

Hmmm, the womb (and the vulva) as the gateway of spirit into the world of matter. Makes sense.

Michael

[imported_SimonMember]

I’ve just had the TV on in the background, switched to what was supposed to be a re-run of Graham Hancock’s Underworld: Flooded Kingdoms program on Discovery Civilisation. In fact it turned out to be something about hidden treasures of the British Museum. I wasn’t really focussing on it but suddenly, in the middle of a segment on so-called “African Throwing Knives”, they showed a “knife” that looked exactly like a triskelion (imagine the Isle of Man symbol stretched on the inner digit and cast in heavy metal). Unfortunately it didn’t give a date for the knives but it would be interesting to know if they were relatively antique which would suggest another spontaneous instantiation of this symbol.

(I had a quick search on the internet for a relevant image but none of the throwing knives shown looked like the three-bladed one on the programme.)

[imported_supernaturalistMember]

Cheers Simon,

There’s a good chance I’ll be in London at the end of April, and I need to amuse myself on a Saturday afternoon while my wife goes to a conference. I planned to go to the BM to look at the Franks Casket (which I believe is on display there), so I’ll look around the African collection as well.

Regards,

Michael

[imported_MadDanEcclesMember]

Re. the tryskele or fylfot – I’ve always taken this to be a variant of the swastika (in its pre-Nazi aspect of course), meaning that it’s a dynamic, revolving Solar symbol, and extremely masculine – having a threefold as opposed to a fourfold symmetry reinforces these aspects. I would imagine that African throwing-knives are made this way coincidentally, because there aren’t that many conveniently throwable simple shapes – otherwise you’d end up having to consider the mystical imagery concealed in quite a few of the wares at your local boomerang shop (if you have one – I do, which is nice, though very seldom useful). Quite a few of which are suspiciously swastika-shaped, by the way, but fortunately for boomerang enthusiasts, nobody has suggested a political correctness amendment to the laws of aerodynamics! (Yet…)

Re. labyrinths, I’m surprised nobody has mentioned Glastonbury Tor, which was probably carved into a classic Cretan labyrinth design, allowing you to go on a symbolic pilgrimage on the way to the top (if you’ve got a map, you still can). Some ancient Greek or other (Herodotus possibly? I’m quoting from memory) mentions a “spherical temple” to Apollo that rather surprisingly existed in a far Northern land which was probably Britain (don’t forget the Cornish tin trade connection). Obvious the god in question was some local chappie roughly similar to Apollo, but the word “spherical” threw scholars off for decades, until somebody pointed out that a globular structure of any size would have been physically impossible to build, but the ancient Greek word for “spiral” was near-as-dammit the same, and sounded identical if said with a non-Greek accent. Does that help at all?

[imported_supernaturalistMember]

Hello Mad Dan,

Thanks for your input.

Quote:

I would imagine that African throwing-knives are made this way coincidentally, because there aren’t that many conveniently throwable simple shapes – otherwise you’d end up having to consider the mystical imagery concealed in quite a few of the wares at your local boomerang shop (if you have one – I do, which is nice, though very seldom useful).

I appreciate your point. On the other hand, you could say the same about swords and daggers, which are conveniently shaped for sticking into people, but also have a wealth of symbolic associations. I have no idea if I have a local boomerang shop, it never occured to me to look.

As far as solar/masculine symbolism goes I didn’t realise that the number three had those associations. I’m not denying that it may do, but it also has lunar/feminine associations. In the case of the three-armed Brigid cross I suppose you have a potential solar/feminine association. Pesky symbols; you think you understand them, and then you come across something else which gives them the opposite meaning!

I came upon the Glastonbury Tor labrynth, and I also came across claims that it is contrived or perhaps modern. Of course, I don’t see a reason why we can’t continue to create valid symbols in the landscape; there is a bias towards the ancient. Nevertheless, I’ve got a copy of Herodotus, I’ll see if I can find that reference (might take some time). Anyone else have any idea about the antiquity or otherwise, or the existence or otherwise, of the Glastonbury labrynth?

My attention was originally drawn to the Rocky Valley labrynths near Tintagel, and it is worth noting that there have also been doubts expressed about their antiquity (though they definitely exist). I visited them and I can’t say anything much seemed to result at the time, though circumstances weren’t ideal. Mind you, a while earlier in the comfort of my own home I did do a labrynth meditation and half-fried my brains – Vyxen gave me some advise that arrived a day too late!

Cheers,

Michael

[imported_YURIMember]

I live in in glastonbury and the the Tor Maze is a very popular theory.

I’m not convinced though. I have walked it with Richard Ward and in theory its there but there is no real evidence other than Geofrey Ashe’s own publictaions about it… its possible but is also terribly contrived; and you have to squish things to make it work.

At best, I think you could say that there was definitly a processional route up the Tor, as a place of sun worship, but whether it fits the 7 rings, cretan maze type thing…. I’m not convinced.

[imported_PercevalMember]

For all cretan labyrinth fans out there:
[url:dj21va0e]http://tinyurl.com/ndj3e[/url]

[imported_SimonMember]

This takes me back!

I’ve just been browsing through Adam McClean’s very interesting new Alchemy Forum ([url:11nwu7u7]http://www.alchemydiscussion.com[/url]) and the 1618 engraving of Valentine’s ninth key (or at least the bottom section enclosed in the circle) reminded me of the three hares.

Here’s the link: [url:11nwu7u7]http://www.alchemydiscussion.com/view_topic.php?id=74&forum_id=2[/url] – but you’ll have to register (free) to see the images.

[imported_supernaturalistMember]

Thanks Simon, interesting. It might be worth getting an alchemist’s take on the three hares. I’ll get the opportunity to meet one at the end of November, I’ll have to try and remember to ask.

I’ll have to browse those forums myself at some point. I keep meaning to delve deeper into the subject of Alchemy. I love alchemical illustrations.

Michael

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